Creator in focus: Anupama Chandrasekaran of Desi Stones and Bones
A podcast that familiarises you with India's natural history while taking you behind the scenes of the work being done by Indian archaeologists and palaeontologists
Desi Stones and Bones was a podcast I stumbled upon while reading Scroll and right from the first episode, I was hooked to the storytelling format.
Amid the many interview-format podcasts, it was nice to listen to an independently produced narrative podcast. I had recommended the podcast in an earlier newsletter.
Reported and produced by the one-woman team, Anupama Chandrasekharan, Desi Stones and Bones is a labour of love. You can tell that when you look at the site which not just has the podcast episodes but illustrations, text and photos to make the listening experience even richer. The focus on India’s natural history is what makes this podcast stand out.
Without further ado, here are edited excerpts from a long interview which I had conducted a few months ago. Enjoy!
Could you tell me how you got into podcasting?
Audio has always been of interest to me irrespective of podcasts. I’ve been a radio listener for many years. When I was a student in the US, there wasn’t any Netflix around for entertainment, but I had a small radio in my room on which I listened to BBC Radio, NPR and other stations. Radio allowed me to do my work as I listened to something. The programs themselves were just amazing. I relished the storytelling using audio – so I was an audience first.
Growing up, my Dad had given us empty audio tapes and we had a recorder at home. My Dad knew how to engage children, which is an important quality. In the summer vacations, he would just give us empty tapes and tell us to interview our grandmother, for instance. As a kid, I enjoyed doing that. I still have the tape with the interview of my grandmother who was 86 years old back then.
You think that the visual medium stays with you, but actually, good audio also resonates with you. For me, it did something to my soul. These were two things from the past.
The term podcast came into my purview thanks to this podcast called Planet Money. I used to teach economics at a school in Chennai and I didn’t use the textbook. As a journalist who wrote on business, I really wanted to break down things and explain them as they are and not as a theory. Planet Money was mind-blowing in that sense, as it simplified dense topics such as the US banking crisis or the Eurozone crisis through stories. That was something I was yearning to do as it resonated with me as a listener. I wanted to work in this medium. But at the time, the technology behind it intimidated me. Now there are many resources to help you out.
Two years ago, I bought the equipment – mainly a good recorder – and decided to take the plunge into podcasting. Once I figured out how I could record good audio, I knew getting the story wasn’t that hard as that was my vocation. I didn’t start off with the focus that I did – archaeology and palaeontology – but started doing a few other stories (which are no longer available now). Eventually, I also liked the process of producing podcasts. If you are working independently and are editing and producing your whole piece, it’s extremely time-consuming as it’s almost like solving puzzles. But it’s extremely satisfying as well. I love selecting the music and to that effect, I listen to a lot of podcasts about music directors, screenplay writers to know how they select the music. On my hourly morning runs, I listen to these podcasts. It was quite intellectually stimulating to figure out how all of this works.
What made you select this niche of archaeology and palaeontology for Desi Stones and Bones?
As a business journalist, I was tired of the quid pro quo nature of meeting people at press conferences and pursuing that kind of stories. I wanted to do something meaningful with my time. I happened to read Pranay Lal’s book Indica and once even managed to interact with him. It really did something to me, talking to him and getting a sense of how sometimes people dedicate their whole life to studying a field, besides their vocation. For instance, Pranay who wrote this fantastic book on India’s natural history is actually an infectious diseases specialist. He’s a biochemist but also a weekend palaeontologist, who has documented two decades of his excursions into a book.
I had no interest in this space, but our family was in complete awe of what we learned from this book. It answered questions such as what was India? What are the fossils found in India? How did India break away from Gondwana and ended up in the northern hemisphere? It felt like this is the kind of pursuit one must have.
Pranay is a very generous person and the contacts he shared with me were equally generous with sharing their knowledge. It was completely different from the interactions in the corporate world. I had to tell their story, and more than that, I wanted to know more about this. I was quite grateful that they were willing to talk to me and take me with them to their field. There are many stories to be told about how archaeologists found important digs.
Were you looking for a specific type of listener?
There was no objective or an audience profile in mind, as such. I just felt that this was an important story that needs to be told which nobody is telling. I wanted to tell it through this audio medium. I also decided to draw for each story. And since I was funding it myself, I didn’t want to keep any restrictions on format or cadence as that was unsustainable. For the first time, I found my kids interested in the work I was doing, and I felt that was a great measure.
This is a niche segment and a vast subject area. Your podcast episodes span a wide spectrum, so how do you organise it?
Like I said before, this is not a fixed-format podcast. The idea is that this is a podcast on archaeology and palaeontology and I will produce the stories that I am able to produce. By that I mean: I get the right people to talk to and I can afford to travel to the right places. I really don’t know what is the common thread, I hope it will emerge eventually. I have received overtures to write a book, but it’s too early to say anything. I need to put in at least five years of work in this area. It is possible that the stories appear random but I find it difficult to chalk out how the podcast episodes will play out. This is also a reason why I have refrained from marketing my podcast as well.
The idea right now is to solely focus on the content building activity and gradually piece it together. For instance, if I have more stories then maybe I can divide the podcast into two sections and the future stories will fit in either section. Right now, I am working within my constraints. If I wait for a particular structure, then I will never produce the stories that I do. I don’t want to get intimidated at the start. I am in it for the long haul which is why I work on this economically. I work out of a home office. I travel extremely budget. People have approached me to employ them, but I can’t pay their salaries. I have been approached by podcasting collectives, but they have certain requirements when it comes to productivity and they want a certain cadence which I feel could come at the cost of quality.
Could you talk me through your podcasting workflow? You are two years into this podcast, so how has it been producing the podcasts?
I have to admit, the process differs from episode to episode. Right now, I am struggling to finish the next episode. Even though I have all the material, I don’t have the mind space to complete it. Ideally, I report each episode. For instance, just before the Covid lockdowns, I did a reporting trip which lasted around a week.
When I travel, I will report on a couple of stories at least. I travelled to Goa, from there to Ratnagiri, then Pune, then onwards to the Kutch. I prefer to do overnight journeys so that I don’t have to spend on hotel stays. I just do two flights – flight to the first spot, road travel to other areas and flight back home from the last destination. After reporting, I clean up the audio I have gathered.
The next story I am working on is about the aquatic reptile called the Ichthyosaur. I have been on the field in Tamil Nadu with a couple of scientists who were looking out for an Ichthyosaur bone, so I have a recording from on the field. This includes sounds of cars, our footsteps, us finding shark teeth from millions of years ago. Additionally, I also speak to other experts over the phone whose recordings I clean up as well.
After cleaning up, it’s a matter of figuring out which portions of the audio clips I want to use. Then I piece them together, write the script and then record it in my studio. Finally, I piece them together with music. That entire process takes up over two weeks, sometimes more.
You feel like you have got it after reporting, but till you sit with the material and keep shuffling things around, it’s not complete. Covid19 has definitely put a lot of strain on my workflow as you may have read about the added responsibilities for women. I am struggling right now to complete my next episode.
(Side Note: That episode is now up: Sea Dragons)
Each of your episodes has scenic sounds and mandates you to be outdoors. With the lockdown in place since February, do you think your plans for the year’s recordings have been disrupted due to Covid19 enforced lockdowns?
No, actually I had finished all my recordings for the year. I travelled in November last year for a story I am working on currently, then I took another long trip in February, which I spoke about. I just have to follow up with scientists remotely to see what they are up to. I have enough stories which I still need to produce, so I am not worried on that front. I have a few other backup recordings that I have done from the field thanks to my absolutely slow pace of work. That has helped me.
I need to worry about next year. Maybe I will consolidate all the extra audio I have and see what can be done. I have extra video recordings, archival footage from my recordings and so on. What I put out on the podcast is only 5 percent of what I have actually recorded, so we will see. Else, I will just take a break. I have applied for the PRX Google Podcaster’s program again this year. If something works out, that’s great.
Is there any reasoning behind the length of your podcast episodes? Or do you just go with the material on hand for each episodes?
You are using your sense as a story-teller, depending on the material you have. I do listen to hour-long podcasts as well, but I am always thinking of which are the juiciest clips I can use. Producing 20 mins itself squeezes the life out of you. Even though I would like to produce something longer, it might have to be on some other topic perhaps. That’s one advantage of being a generalist.
Personally, I would love to listen to an Indian food podcast where there are actual sounds from the kitchen and from the food being cooked. Grinding of the masalas, actual frying of the puris and so on, I am thinking as an audience I would love to hear a podcast like that. If nothing works out, I would consider working on a podcast on food from the kitchen – which is again, done and dusted, but I can still do it in a different way with some fabulous sounds from the kitchen. I know Vikram Doctor does a food podcast which is quite interesting, but to actually do a kitchen podcast where you can hear casual chatter and conversations in the kitchen is something I would love to do.
It irritates me to listen to my own voice in the commentary. The ideas are innumerable. For instance, my daughter bakes a lot and takes a lot of fabulous photographs for her Instagram. But unfortunately, she won’t let me record. My son loves insects and has his own tiny houses for ants. For me, those are interesting stories to tell. Imagine someone who told a story of a boy who is living in South India who loves insects, keeps ants in his test tubes and observes how they lay eggs and grow. It’s a delicious story within my home, but my kids won’t let me capture it.
What I am trying to say is this: There are enough stories around, even if I am not able to travel for the fossil stories.
Are the scientists, researchers, archaeologists approachable and keen to share their workspace and talk at length with you? Do you need to get permissions before you approach to interview them on the field?
I have contact with one of the most senior palaeontologists in the field in India, Ashok Sahni. He is 83 years old, an amazing person and many people have been on the receiving end of his generosity. When I get any scientist’s contact through him or through Pranay, those scientists are generally very helpful. My reputation doesn’t matter as I benefit from the reputation of Mr Sahni or Mr Lal.
Scientists are quite open to taking you to the field. For instance, in Kutch, I went to the field with a scientist. Even in Pune, I visited the Deccan College where they study archaeology and palaeontology and was shown fossils. In Ratnagiri, I also came across some locals who are doing some exceptional work despite not being scientists. They are doing a lot of conservation work with the limited money they have.
It depends on how you come across to them. If you act too snooty or come across as too anglicised, then there will be resistance. I can speak a couple of languages. In Ratnagiri, the locals spoke Marathi and I know the language despite being a Tamilian, as I grew up in Bombay. That creates a bridge and when you travel to meet these experts, they understand that you are genuinely interested in their work. Speaking in the local language definitely helps a lot in building a rapport.
Have you noticed any increase or decrease in your podcast listenership since the lockdown?
I have to check. Generally, there is a pickup when I get featured somewhere online. For instance, I was featured by Scroll because the writer discovered my podcast and liked it. After Scroll, more publications approached me. I have never given this much of a thought. A lot of scientists write in and tell me if they have heard my episode. As I am still in the content building phase and it isn’t time-dependent, I don’t pay much attention to the daily listenership and social media marketing, which is a whole other ballgame.
Doing this research costs money, right now you are self-financing...
We as a family are quite thrifty. I change my phone once every five years, I don’t get branded clothes and so on. That itself saves a lot of money which can be spent on my podcast. I am careful about the way I spend my money which is how I am able to finance my podcast. I have come to realise that my podcast spends don’t cost a lot of money. The only expenses for the podcast are for the equipment. Due to lockdowns, I am saving a lot of petrol cost per month.
Have you approached any foundation or scientific organisation to fund you in any way? Your podcast is like a good endorsement of the hard work going behind these disciplines in India. Not many podcasters are looking at it the way you are.
I haven’t felt the need to do it yet. Yes, it has definitely crossed my mind. But I feel like if I can afford to produce the podcast now, let me not approach them now. If I really feel like it’s needed, I’ll approach them. If I seek those funds, there might be some conditions attached to it and then there will be the pressure of advertising money and sustaining the podcast in the future. I just want to build new content, new illustrations and then make it really difficult for them to refuse my offer. I am fine with waiting as I can’t expect everything to happen so soon. I am in this for the long haul.
Any podcasts you really like listening to
Guardian’s Today in Focus is good, Caliphate, Planet Money, Rough Translations, Invisiblia. There is one quiz podcast Wait Wait Don’t Tell which I like. I like the older episodes of This American Life. Ira Glass has such a good voice and it’s so difficult to speak like him. I have heard from people who have taken workshops with This American Life about how you have to do exercises, jumping jacks and so on to relax the muscles.
What are your thoughts on the Indian podcasting industry and where it’s headed?
I just feel it’s a bubble. There was a podcaster meet I had attended in Bengaluru. But I found it quite useless as it was all about “Let’s talk about each other’s podcasts and spread the word.” There wasn’t much of a focus on storytelling or technicalities, as I believe that’s how a Serial or Caliphate come about.
I have serious doubts about podcasts being a thriving business. Let’s decode this: For a business, you are looking at costs, revenues and profits. If you are looking at a podcasting company today – a couple of which I know – they have a studio, then you are hiring say 5 people and paying them salaries (say around Rs 60k per person) so that amounts to Rs 3 lakh. Add in Rs 1 lakh as rent for the space. That comes to Rs 4 lakh per month. Would you get around that much ad-revenue, subscription revenue as an independent organisation?
Maybe you can get subscription revenue, but there is a lot of noise out there at the moment with audiences. I don’t understand why people are saying podcasts are picking up now. I listen to podcasts when I am up and about, like when I go for a run or am driving or am commuting. But that has reduced now, so logically speaking video content should pick up.
I have my doubts about audio content picking up at this juncture. My own podcast listening time has reduced as I don’t go out much. I find the podcasting scene a bit incestuous and I’m wary about it. There is a lot of focus on conferences, that has become the main business. The focus isn’t on podcasters meeting and creating content together. As a content producer, it tells me that one can’t make money producing podcasts. This is true at the moment. It does need patrons and it needs a low-cost way of working. I have my doubts about how the revenue will come in.
There are reports which say that the number of podcasts produced during the lockdowns has seen a spike. Plus, there are big players getting in on the podcast market, such as Spotify or Audible Suno and so on. Do you feel that will push the sector and make it a viable medium in India, which doesn’t have a radio listening culture like some of the western countries?
I find it tough to get into this kind of analysis, as I feel if the content is great then nothing matters. Also, I have my doubts with these kinds of statistics, as often these studies are funded by someone who has an interest in the medium. I do know that some of the podcasting companies aren’t doing well financially. I am not surprised by that as that is what happens when you are going for scale immediately.
A lot of them have this idea that they will set up this podcast business and invest a lot of money in the hope that someday they will get bought off by Amazon or another big company. That’s their business model. Rather than focus on producing good content and getting money from listeners and advertisers. Thereby sustaining it.
In my field, I feel it should ideally be patron-driven. There has been a very limited focus on producing great quality content. For instance, BBC produced a podcast with Kalki Koechlin called My Indian Life, which was so well done. A lot of Indian media companies are stuck with this chatter-cast format, which is really annoying. These media organisations have the potential to produce good quality podcasts with good equipment. I don’t think there is any focus on good quality content which has made me go Wow!
Even Intersections was good, but they used a lot of canned sounds which I felt could have been better produced. As an Indian audience who loves Indian content, I felt we have immense scope to do good stories. But people are in a rush to get into the podcast industry.
The problem is that not a lot of journalists have come into this space – not that I want to demean non-journalists doing podcasts. I feel a majority of the podcasters these days are great with the technical side of podcasting, but the story-telling aspect of podcasts is missing. Indian Express had produced some great podcasts on topics such as water shortage, the Delhi riots and so on. That’s the kind of content you need. Content that moves you.
I hope you enjoyed this interview. In the next edition of the newsletter, I’ll be back with another creator. Till then, enjoy listening to Desi Stones and Bones.
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